莫问世界1:从土耳其到荷兰,她如郁金香般的游荡路线和动荡艰难
莫前言:
你还记得小时候,瞭望世界和自己的未来时,给自己想象的理想职业吗?
在这个大家因为职业而感到倦怠的时代,这个问题多少有些古老和遥远。
可是我一直还记得。
我在非常小非常小,甚至走路跑步还不怎么顺畅灵活的时候,扶着家里养鸡的鸡筐,对着吃我鸡蛋的叔叔展开了激情输出,条分缕析地指责他一个大人不能吃我一个婴幼儿的东西。语言能力发育早于和优先于肢体发育,这是我给我的家人们留下的极深的印象之一,因此在我成长过程中它们不停地念叨我扶鸡筐骂叔叔的故事。这个故事随着我长到30多岁或许它们都已经忘了,我却一直清晰地记着。
另一个故事是,我当时当老师的四爷爷(我爷爷的弟弟),指着我和家人说:“她长大会当律师或者记者啊!”在闭塞的乡村,很少有人会提起这样的职业,而老师的威严简直是无限高的。所以人很容易相信,老师说的话是金玉良言,是箴言预言。而有了这样的相信,人就很容易成为一场自我实现的预言。
预言的成真并不在于我真的成为了记者或者律师(我也庆幸我没有成为,在新闻和法律都通通死亡的环境里,我的职业理想和生活理想都会灰飞烟灭),而在于这两个职业的共性我时至今日一直在做:对真问题和真答案矢志不渝的提问,追问和探索。
我不仅每天问自己,也问别人,问多年相交的朋友,也问在世界各个角落萍水相逢的陌生人。在日常生活里问,在播客里问,在我写的文章里问,通过这个时代的新的媒体渠道,我把我想问的问题以雷达的方式发射出去。
所以我的职业理想是什么呢?是一个提问者,是一个采访者,是一个永恒对世界和它人的真实面貌和运行机制充满了兴趣和好奇的人。
2025年8月放学以后刚更新了一期四个半小时的播客《56 向世界和你随机发问:这些问题都是谁有答案呀?!》算是我满足职业理想的一期播客,它被剪到四个半小时实在是因为这是播客内容时长的极限和绝大部分听友能接受的极限,却不是我提问的极限。倘若可以,我可以提问24小时不停歇。
有一句话是:“想知道你热爱什么?看看你把自由支配的时间用在了哪里。”我在大学四年和工作五年的闲暇时间里,把我绝大部分的时间给了各式各样的访谈节目,正经严肃的,轻松愉快的,戏谑辛辣的,我风卷残云地吸入,有时候因为时间有限但是我都不想错过,我甚至偶尔同时在电脑上开4个访谈节目的窗口,一起看看当天的哪个最好。
徐熙娣,蔡康永,柴静,鲁豫,易立竞,杨澜,许戈辉,李静,锵锵三人行,阿雅,甚至现在已经不在访谈届活跃的张丹丹,已经消失的光线巨多主持人群访的节目,都是我自由时间的美味主菜。我所学的专业和我的职业理想毫无关系,但是我每日都在闲暇时间给自己进行无意识的职业训练。
我还尤其热爱观看采访者采访采访者(一个套娃)的节目,对我简直是饕餮盛宴,比如鲁豫在节目里采访杨澜,采访许戈辉,前些天我还看到鲁豫和易立竞的对谈,这些能给我带来的满足简直是无可比拟的:因为从她们的对谈中,我能学习到更多关于采访,关于提问的秘诀,了解她们如何做准备工作的,如何在恐惧退却不安时向前一步提问的。每次学到一点点,我都有偷蜜盗香的快乐。
在学习了这么多,我如今决定也来进一步实现一下自己的职业理想了。
先以文字的方式开始,在newsletter(https://afterschool2021.substack.com/)和游荡者平台(www.youdangzhe.com)开启我的“莫问世界Echoing the World (英文名源于我的名字Echo和我想听到世界的回声-echo)”系列。我第一波要采访的对象,就是来自世界各地的游荡者们。
为什么要向游荡者进行提问呢?
因为从故乡故土离开,前往世界游荡,需要莫大的勇气和弹性。而拥有勇气和弹性的人,可能性也最辽阔。我想通过我的采访和提问,把勇敢者的故事记录下来,分享出去。我也相信在游荡路上的人,过着更intense(激烈强烈)的生活,也更有希望和可能,在生活的变动和自我的主动中,找到生活的答案。
这是“莫问世界 Echoing the World”的开篇第一篇,我采访我在荷兰语课上结识的土耳其同学Elif.
Elif和妈妈在3年前以难民的身份来到荷兰。我对Elif的生活非常感兴趣,是因为她极其聪明,荷兰语是我们班上最好的,我非常喜欢课上和她结伴对话。她也特别友好和乐于助人,在我需要紧急搬家的时候还帮我找房子。
同时ELif还是女权主义者,课上聊到婚姻给女性带来的灾难时我俩还跨越桌子击掌。她还非常美丽,穿的衣服也非常好看,每次去学校上课我都会看看她今天又穿了什么好看的衣服,我俩还一起讨论买的vintage衣服。
而且我还从Elif这里知道,荷兰享誉世界的国花郁金香,恰恰是来源于土耳其。郁金香从土耳其被商人带到了荷兰,开启了“郁金香泡沫”,也开始了郁金香蜚声国际的历程。
Elif像郁金香一样美丽,也从土耳其来到了荷兰。她当下的一切看起来都非常好,像春日复活节在荷兰暖阳下摇曳生辉的郁金香。所以我尤其想知道,她是如何这么好的,经历过怎样的困难和波折,才抵达如今的“好”。
下面是我和Elif的问答,希望也能对你有所启发。
访谈以英文进行,我率先把中文翻译版放在了下面便于阅读。文末还有英文原文,感兴趣的朋友可在阅读完中文后也浏览英文(可能英文能更加表达受访者的情感和感受)。也从这个系列开始这个频道会逐步开始有更多英文的内容(播客也是,明年说不定会有专属的英文系列)!
莫问世界1:莫不谷访谈Elif
1. 你是什么时候来到荷兰的?
Elif: 我是在 2022 年 8 月来到荷兰的,月初抵达,月底申请的难民庇护。
莫笔记:我是在2021年8月底来到荷兰的,刚好比Elif早了一年,现在是2025年8月底。8月是荷兰一年中最后美好的时间,在那之后风雨就会逐步到来,白天开始变短,气温开始下降,夜晚逐步更早地来临。
2. 当时为什么觉得必须要离开你所处的国家?是什么让你觉得留在那里不可能或者不安全?
Elif: 当时土耳其的总统埃尔多安与宗教领袖居伦之间存在政治问题。居伦的运动旨在传播爱、和平,更重视宗教、礼仪和教育。2016 年土耳其发生了政变,总统埃尔多安将其政变归咎于居伦及其追随者,并开始抓捕所有支持居伦的人(很多居伦的支持者在政府任职)。妈妈的朋友们一个接一个被拘捕入狱,这让她非常害怕,所以我们决定来到荷兰。
莫笔记:我从Elif这里第一次知道了“居伦运动”这个词,因为我此前非常好奇,土耳其并没有战争,怎么能够以难民身份来到荷兰申请政治庇护呢?搜索了居伦运动才知道土耳其总统将和自己政见不同的居伦和其支持者定义为了“恐怖分子”,大肆抓捕了居伦同情者或参与者。很多人只是学校的老师和公司的职员,也被逮捕入狱。很多时候当权者会以各种名义抓捕政见或者利益不同者,这在很多国家屡见不鲜,比如大家所熟知的“打黑运动”和不一定熟知的709大抓捕。
3. 为什么选择了荷兰?做这个决定考虑了哪些因素?
Elif:我们研究了几个国家,比如芬兰、法国和荷兰,最后决定来荷兰,因为荷兰的庇护程序更完善,人权也更受重视。所以我们觉得荷兰是最合适的选择。
莫笔记:这是3年前的荷兰,而去年荷兰右翼政党PVV登台,对难民和移民都提出了极其严苛的提案。庆幸的是PVV党魁今年夏天因为提出疯狂的反难民和移民的法案,得到了大家的反对,他已经怒而辞职。荷兰正在准备新的大选,我今天看到他又要再次参加选举,竞选内容包括全面停止难民接收。在全球转右的风潮中,难民需求政治庇护愈发艰难。而目前无休无止的战争和政治矛盾,正在创造越来越多的难民。
4. 最后是以怎样的方式来到荷兰的?有经历很多麻烦和波折吗?从原本的国家来荷兰花了多少时间,多少钱?
Elif: 我们持土耳其护照合法乘飞机来到荷兰。因为我和妈妈有一种叫“绿色护照”的特殊护照,所以不需要签证(政府员工工作后可获得)。我们先飞到法国,再开车来荷兰。具体花费现在我已经记不清了。
莫笔记:可见一个好护照,和会开车的技能,之于游荡中的女性多么重要!
5. 来到荷兰后第一个月经历了什么?申请难民身份的流程顺利吗?需要待在难民中心吗?
Elif: 刚来荷兰的第一个月非常糟糕。当我们决定申请庇护时,有很多庇护申请者和难民,Ter Apel 和其它难民营都很满。我们非常担心我们我们会不得不在难民营外面待几天。虽然风险很大,但幸运的是我们最终没有待在外面。难民营的工作人员为妇女、儿童和家庭提供食物和床位,但单身男性只能在满员的情况下暂时待在外面。前三天我们住在 Ter Apel,那地方很糟糕。
Ter Apel 是主要的难民中心,所有申请庇护的人都必须去那里。之后,你要么继续住在那里,要么被送到其他难民中心。我们在 Ter Apel 待了三天后,被送到一个紧急避难所,是一个学校的大体育馆,位于 Exloo,离 Ter Apel 大约 30-40 分钟车程。Exloo 是一个小而漂亮的村庄。由于难民数量多且住宿不足,这些地方被改造成临时避难所。我们在那里待了一周,没有隐私,每个人都在大大厅里睡觉,我记得大约 70-100 人,可能更多。
我们在这Exloo这个避难所早餐和晚餐。我在那里听到人们说荷兰语,当时觉得这门语言很难学,不知道如何开始学😭。当天气转冷后,我们被送到 Oss,在那里住了 2 年半。一开始到Oss我们在学校待了 3-5 个月,也是临时避难所,然后搬到预制房间。我们在 Oss 的难民营算是比较漂亮的营地,有很多活动和志愿者工作,们教我们荷兰语,我就是这样开始学习荷兰语。
莫笔记:Ter Apel是荷兰东北部格罗宁根省的一个很大的村子,和德国毗邻,很多寻求政治庇护的难民会被短暂安置在这里。我用地图绘制了Elif在荷兰3年内的生活动线,从北部来到了南部,跨越了大半个荷兰。
6. 现在对荷兰的感受还和第一个月一样吗?经历了哪些变化呢?
Elif: 最初几个月,我觉得荷兰更好。现在这里一切都变贵了。我还是不喜欢下雨😭。有句荷兰谚语说:“你不是糖做的”,意思是你不会在雨中融化,但我觉得自己会哈哈。我仍然认为荷兰是一个美丽的国家。
莫笔记:因为俄罗斯发起的对乌克兰的战争,带来了荷兰整体物价的上涨,也导致了荷兰人对难民和移民情绪的转变。之于难民和移民而言,荷兰都不如过去几年更好。当然整个世界也都如此。今天在新的荷兰语课上,我还把elif说的这句谚语分享给了来自智利的同学,她说她觉得自己糖,会在荷兰的雨中融化。土耳其和智利,都是比荷兰更少雨,晴朗的日子更多的国家。然而现在气候变化强烈,荷兰和伦敦这种往日多雨的地方最近半年很少下雨,而北京这种干燥的地方整个夏天成为了热带雨林,变得潮湿。有时候气候变化,甚至比人迁移的变化,更强烈。
7. 迄今为止喜欢在荷兰的生活吗?有哪些喜欢的,有哪些不喜欢的?
Elif: 我喜欢在荷兰的生活。我爱参加派对、音乐节,荷兰是玩乐的最佳国家,而且荷兰人很会享受生活。但每个城市都差不多,有教堂、运河、同样的房屋建筑。虽然我喜欢建筑,但久了有点无聊。我不喜欢这里的交通系统,很糟糕,价格高,而且下雨时火车总是晚点,这让我很奇怪。
莫笔记:因为我之前3年都生活在鹿特丹,一个二战后新建的城市,和荷兰所有城市都不一样,相反我住的地方和纽约的曼哈顿特别像,所以我对此的感受略有不同。不过荷兰的交通真的是相当昂贵,比欧洲消费最高的地方瑞士苏黎世的交通费用更昂贵。很多人通勤都是靠火车,很多地方火车通勤往返费用在20-40欧,而苏黎世10瑞郎买的火车票可以24小时内随便坐多少趟,还能用来坐船。
8. 如果可以回到你做决定的时刻,你还会选择荷兰吗?还是会考虑另一个国家?为什么?
Elif: 这是个好问题,我不太确定怎么回答,但我仍然会选择荷兰,因为这里繁荣程度高,自由度比其他国家大。
莫笔记:我的答案也是如此,尤其在我游荡完欧洲和全球绝大多数地方后,我依然觉得当初的自己做出了最明智的选择。
9. 如果你可以和另一个人交换人生,你最想和谁交换?
Elif: 我想和荷兰人交换人生。并非某个具体的荷兰人,我希望能像荷兰人一样自由说荷兰语,做自己想做的事。
莫笔记:我在荷兰人,巴黎人,苏黎世人,纽约人中间任选,我的前四志愿,任意一个录取我都可以。
10. 你觉得一个人离开自己故乡故土,是一件怎样的事情?是好事还是坏事?为什么?
Elif: 这既是好事,也是坏事。大多数人离开家乡是因为那里不够安全,想为自己和家人过更好的生活。离开一切是艰难的,因为你无法预知未来,但怀着希望、尽力而为,会让你走得更远。
莫笔记:我认为之于女性,是永恒的好事。虽然挑战和艰难很多,但是对自我的解放是留在原地绝不可能发生的事情。
11. 离开家乡去另一个国家生活,最需要的品质是什么?最需要克服的困难有哪些?
Elif: 这因人而异,但我觉得耐心、文化开放与尊重、韧性和适应能力非常重要。初到一个陌生国家可能非常困难。语言障碍、文化冲击、心理健康和社交孤立是主要挑战。经历这些挑战后,最重要的是保持良好的心理状态并学会当地语言,其他困难就会相对容易应对。
莫笔记:我的答案是主动。绝大部分困难是通过主动可以解决的。对我而言最需要克服的困难是不想上班哈哈哈,而想要获得永居或者护照则必须有工作合同(当然伴侣签也可以,但是和人成为伴侣,那比上班更可怕)
12. 你有感受过极度崩溃、疲惫或绝望的时刻吗?你是如何让自己走出那种状态的?
Elif: 当然有。我经历过哭泣、精神崩溃的日子。我在难民营住了 2 年半,之前说过,营地条件还可以。但我们和不同国籍的人住在同一屋檐下(私密空间和个人空间很少),这可能是人能经历的非常艰难的事情。我因为这种没有缝隙的共居生活甚至变得有点种族偏见,但我没有不尊重任何人,只是产生了一些负面情绪。我认为公共场所应保持清洁,这是社会公德。但有些人做不到,比如做饭后不收拾、厕所不卫生。我当时做营地的志愿者负责厨房和清洁,每天厨房的情况让我非常沮丧。和工作人员沟通无果后,我感到压抑、挫败和伤心,因为这只是融入社会的一小部分。后来我意识到没人会改变,于是我找了工作,每天在外面工作 8-9 小时,同时学荷兰语,保持忙碌让我走出低谷。同时我当时还遇到了前男友,大部分时间和他在一起。
莫笔记:“自己的房间”真的是人能保持平静和欢愉非常重要的事情,无所不在的集体生活很容易把人逼疯。人需要个体生活,把自己从无所不在的集体的中抽身出来。之前我合租的室友绝大部分都是女性,感受都很不错,但是现在我合租的男性室友总在房子里抽烟抽大麻,都让我很抓狂。而且我从女性那里承租的房子总是很干净,从男性手里承租的房子都脏到不可忍受。所以我现在有性别“偏见,甚至我觉得自己持有的都不是偏见,而是事实:在维持干净卫生层面,绝大多数男性差女性太多,我也相信如果有统计学研究,这个结论会被认证为有“显著差异signifcant difference”.
13. 如果你可以让这个世界上消失一件事,你希望是什么?
Elif: 我希望消除不平等,因为这个世界非常不平等。本质上人类都是同一种族,但享有的权利多或少不一。
莫笔记:答案答案同上。
14. 你最希望发生什么事?对你自己和这个世界来说,如果它发生了,会变得更好?
Elif: 这个问题有点难回答,我会说希望平等和正义得到实现,因为并非每个人都能享有这些。我会再仔细思考。
莫笔记:我会希望每个国家的领导人都是女性,这样战争会更少发生,平等和正义实现的可能性更高。
15. 你原来国家的家人和朋友现在过得怎么样?
Elif: 家人和朋友在土耳其过得还好。我时不时会和他们联系。有些朋友来过荷兰,我们度过了愉快的时光。我的一个朋友可能今年或明年会来,我很想见他。他要结婚了,我很遗憾不能去参加婚礼。
莫笔记:我去年去了伊斯坦布尔,我发现这是全世界城市中人类最热情友好的地方之一。当然它的男性凝视和二手烟的情况也不容忽视。
16. 对于其他考虑离开国家或者已经经历相似旅程的人,你有什么建议?
我Elif: 建议大家要有耐心,尽管有时很困难。我自己一开始也不太耐心,但慢慢学会了,明白了等待美好事物的价值。其次,要保持开放心态。这对年长或宗教上特别虔诚的人可能比较难,但我们需要学会在不失去自我文化的前提下适应新的文化。
莫笔记:我非常喜欢elif这句“等待美好事物的价值”,很多时候好事情就是会慢慢到来的,就像很多时候人们把取得一个国家的永居或者国籍的过程叫做“移民监”,等待的时间被称作是蹲监狱。我有时候被签证困扰也不免这么觉得,但是也会转念一想:我怎么能把自己每一天的日子定义为“监狱”呢,这实在是对不起自己。我也停止想象“等我拿到了护照我将更自由更幸福”,我尽量让自己当下的每一天都幸福和自由。我不把任何一天当做是次等的。
17. 你现在觉得自己真正属于这里吗?什么样的地方会让你觉得这是“家”?
Elif: 不,我不觉得自己真正属于这里,也不认为将来会有这种感觉。我在土耳其时也没有这种归属感。我觉得有朋友、真诚的朋友、慷慨的环境会让我感到像家,但在荷兰这很难找到。
莫笔记:ELif的话让我想起了伍尔夫的那句“As a woman, I have no country”,女性在任何地方想找到真正的归属感都是很难的。这个世界很多地方都只是男性的家。其实我来到荷兰的第一周,我就非常惊异地发现,我在精神层面没有什么需要调整和适应的,我有一种如鱼得水的感觉。我现在想想,对我而言,让我感受到自由的地方就是我的家。自由,自然,自在的地方都可以是我的家,理想的家。
18. 你怎么看自己五年后的生活?想留在荷兰,回到原来的国家,还是去别的地方?
Elif:五年后我可能还会在荷兰,做自己想做的工作,过得很开心。但之后我真的想搬到一个更温暖的国家,比如西班牙。我也想远程工作。我喜欢西班牙的文化,等我的荷兰语水平够好后,也很想学西班牙语。
Echo’s note: 我也希望秋冬可以住在西班牙,而春夏则住在荷兰,因为西班牙那时候太热了!西班牙和荷兰交替生活会是最理想的状态。
19. 离开原来的国家,来到另一个国家开始新生活,这段经历改变了你吗?你还是以前的你吗?
Elif:这段经历说实话很艰难,尤其是第一年。不过我和人沟通倒没什么问题,我的英语不错,这方面比较容易(Elif之前在土耳其就是英语专业的)。后来我开始学荷兰语,这让生活更顺利。我成长了非常多,也更加相信自己,思维模式也更加“荷兰式”。我很快就适应了这里。现在就是如鱼得水的状态,一切都感觉容易多了。
其实刚在难民营的时候,当我在外面遇到新朋友时,我会很羞于说自己是“难民。
Echo’s note: 我非常能体会Elif提到的那种羞耻感。有时候你的背景或处境会让你觉得自己低人一等,应该为此觉得羞耻,就像我刚从皖北农村来到北京上学时,我的一位学姐偷偷和我说:不要在北京说老家的土话,说普通话。我感觉我当时的脸都因为这句话烧了很久。
这这些羞耻的感受,需要经过很多学习、游荡、创造,反思,才能从生理和心理上全然地摒除,充分意识到这种羞耻感是被社会构建的,毫无必要且相当不合理。我很高兴 Elif——也包括我自己——已经越过了这个部分。
以及我的变化呢,我简直再造重生了自己。不仅仅靠在荷兰,还靠我在全世界各地的游荡和创造,当然这一切都是从我有勇气逃离,来到荷兰开始的。
20. 最近是什么让你感到希望?是什么帮助你坚持下去?
Elif:我的抱负野心和对未来的希望给了我希望。我知道只要主动努力学习汲取、投入时间和精力,我就总能实现自己想要的。我想要美好的生活和未来,所以我会竭尽全力去实现它。
Echo’s note: 这个回答翻译成中文可能有些许的鸡汤,但是我看到elif给我发的原文时非常感动和受到激励。就是你知道一个女性经历了什么,破除了什么,才能对自己有这样的笃信和希望。
什么是幸福的前提呢?抱负、渴望、自信以及对未来的想象力。
Echoing the World – Interview with Elif
1. When did you come to the Netherlands?
Elif: I came to the Netherlands on the 30th of August 2022. Well actually I came here earlier, at the beginning of August, but I sought asylum at the end of the month.
Echo's note: I arrived in the Netherlands at the end of August 2021, exactly one year before Elif. Now it’s August 2025. August is the last beautiful month of the year in the Netherlands; after that, the wind and rain gradually arrive, the days get shorter, temperatures drop, and nights come earlier.
2. Why did you feel that you had to leave your country at that time? What made it impossible or unsafe for you to stay?
Elif: There’s a political problem between Erdogan and Gulen. Erdogan is the president of Turkey and Gulen was a religious leader for his followers. His movement’s goal is to spread love, peace and give more importance to religion, nice manners, and education. In 2016, there was a coup attempt and Erdogan blamed Gulen and his followers for the coup and started arresting everyone who supported Gulen. My mom’s friends were taken into custody and imprisoned one by one. That was scary for my mom, so we decided to come to the Netherlands.
Echo's note: I first learned the term “Gülen movement” from Elif. I had wondered before how it was possible to apply for political asylum in the Netherlands when Turkey was not at war. After researching, I learned that the Turkish president defined Gülen and his supporters as “terrorists” and arrested many, including ordinary teachers and company employees. It’s common in many countries that those in power arrest people for differing opinions or interests, as seen in the well-known “anti-mafia campaigns” or the less-known 709 arrests in China.
3. Why did you choose the Netherlands? What factors influenced your decision?
Elif: We did a lot of research about a few countries such as Finland, France, and the Netherlands. We decided to come here because the asylum procedure was better and human rights are highly valued. That’s why we thought the Netherlands was the best option for us.
Echo's note: This was three years ago in the Netherlands. Last year, the right-wing PVV party came to power, proposing extremely strict policies against refugees and immigrants. Fortunately, this summer, the PVV leader resigned after public opposition to his extreme anti-immigrant proposals. The Netherlands is preparing for a new election, and I saw today that he is running again with a platform to completely stop accepting refugees. In the global wave of rightward politics, obtaining political asylum becomes increasingly difficult. However, endless wars and political conflicts are continually creating more refugees.
4. How did you get to the Netherlands in the end? Was the journey difficult or complicated? How long did it take, and how much did it cost?
Elif: We came to the Netherlands legally, by plane with our Turkish passports. We didn’t need a visa because my mom and I had a special “green passport,” which government employees can get after starting work for the government. First, we flew to France and then came to the Netherlands by car. I honestly don’t remember how much it cost.
Echo's note: A good passport and driving skills are extremely important for women wandering the world!
5. What was your first month in the Netherlands like? Was the asylum process smooth? Did you have to stay in a refugee center?
Elif: My first month was horrible. Ter Apel and other refugee camps were very full. We were scared we might have to stay outside for a few days. Luckily, we didn’t. The camp staff accommodated women, children, and families, providing food and beds, but single men often had to stay outside. We stayed at Ter Apel for three days, which was horrible. Then we were sent to an emergency shelter in Exloo, a small village about 30–40 minutes away. The shelter was a converted school gymnasium, housing 70–100 people with no privacy. We stayed there a week with breakfast and dinner provided. Hearing people speak Dutch there, I thought the language would be very difficult to learn 😭. Later, we moved to Oss for 2.5 years. At first, we stayed in a school for 3–5 months, then moved to prefabricated rooms. Oss was a relatively nice refugee camp with many activities and volunteering opportunities. This is how I started learning Dutch.
Echo's note: Ter Apel is a large village in the northeast of the Netherlands, near Germany. Many refugees seeking political asylum are temporarily placed there. I mapped Elif’s movements in the Netherlands over three years—from the north to the south, crossing most of the country.
6. Do you still feel the same way about the Netherlands as you did in the first month? What has changed?
Elif: In the first months, I thought the Netherlands was better. Now everything has become more expensive. I still don’t like the rain 😭. There’s a saying: “You’re not made of sugar,” meaning you won’t melt in the rain. But I think I’d melt haha. I still think the Netherlands is beautiful.
Echo's note: Due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the overall cost of living in the Netherlands has risen, and attitudes toward refugees and immigrants have changed. For refugees and immigrants, the Netherlands is not as good as it was a few years ago. Of course, the same applies globally.
In my new Dutch class today, I shared Elif’s proverb about not being sugar with a classmate from Chile. She said she feels like sugar that would melt in the Dutch rain. Turkey and Chile both have fewer rainy days than the Netherlands. Recently, due to climate change, rainy places like the Netherlands and London have seen very little rain in the past six months, while dry cities like Beijing have turned humid, like tropical rainforests. Sometimes climate change has a stronger impact than human migration.
7. So far, do you enjoy living in the Netherlands? What do you like and what do you dislike about it?
Elif: I do enjoy living here. I love partying and going to festivals—the Netherlands is the best country for fun. Dutch people really know how to enjoy life. But every city is similar: church, canals, same architecture. It gets a bit boring. I also dislike the transportation system—it’s terrible, expensive, and trains are often delayed when it rains, which I find strange.
Echo's note: I previously lived in Rotterdam for three years—a post-WWII newly built city, very different from other Dutch cities. The place I lived resembled Manhattan in New York. But Dutch public transport is really expensive, even more than Zurich, one of the most expensive European cities. Many people commute by train; round-trip costs are 20–40 euros, while in Zurich, 10 CHF tickets allow unlimited rides for 24 hours and even boat rides. Crazy!
8. If you could go back to the moment you made the decision, would you still choose the Netherlands? Or would you consider another country? Why?
Elif: That’s a good question. I’m not sure how to respond, but I’d still choose the Netherlands because it’s prosperous and freer compared to other countries.
Echo's note: After wandering through most of Europe and the world, I still believe that choosing the Netherlands back then was the wisest decision.
9. If you could switch lives with anyone, who would it be?
Elif: Can I say a Dutch person? Not a specific individual, but I’d like to live like a Dutch person—speak the language freely and do what I want.
Echo's note: My top four preferences: Dutch, Parisian, Zurich, or New Yorker. Any one of these would be perfect.
10. What do you think it means for someone to leave their homeland? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Why?
Elif: It’s both good and bad. Most people leave their country because they don’t feel safe and want a better life. Leaving everything is hard, but with hope and doing your best, you can achieve a better life.
Echo's note: For women, leaving one’s hometown is eternally a good thing. Challenges are many, but self-liberation cannot happen if one stays in place.
11. What qualities are most important when someone leaves their home country to start a new life elsewhere? What are the biggest challenges to overcome?
Elif: It depends on the person. Patience, cultural openness, respect, resilience, and adaptability are important. Language barriers, cultural shock, mental health, and social isolation are major challenges. Maintaining good mental health and learning the local language makes other challenges easier.
Echo's note: For me, proactivity is essential. Most difficulties can be solved actively. The biggest challenge for me is not wanting to work (haha), but to get permanent residence or citizenship, one must have a work contract (or a partner). Becoming a partner is even scarier than working.
12. Have you ever felt completely overwhelmed, exhausted, or hopeless? How did you pull yourself out of that state?
Elif: Omg, of course. I know the days when crying, having mental breakdowns. I stayed 2.5 years in a refugee shelter, I’ve talked about it before and it was a nice camp. However, we had to live with different nationalities and that’s a quite difficult situation one can ever live in. And living there made me a bit of racist.. Still I’m not disrespecting anyone but I have some negative feelings.
If you live in a public place then you should keep it clean in my opinion. That’s a society ethic. However, there were people who wouldnt do that, when they cooked, went to toilet/douche.. And I was doing volunteering and was responsible for the kitchen and cleaning. This situation was pissing me of because how 25-45 year old people cannot clean what they made dirty?!!!? I talked to workers about it, talked to those people but I couldn’t get any results. I was just overwhelmed, frustrated and sad because this is only a small part of integration to society.. I realized that nobody would do anything about it so I found a job and worked almost every day, 8-9 hours, not to go to the shelter and see those people. And I was learning Dutch at the same time. Keeping myself busy pulled me out of that state. Also I met my ex boyfriend and was spending most of my time with him.
Echo's note: Having your own room is extremely important for peace and joy. Life in constant collective spaces can drive people crazy. I’ve lived with mostly female roommates and it was pleasant, but male roommates often smoke or do cannabis indoors, which is maddening. In terms of cleanliness, most men are far less clean than women. These facts make me “sexist”( which i regrad not as prejudice but as truth)
13. If you could make one thing disappear from this world, what would it be?
Elif: Inequality, because the world is very unequal. Everyone is of the same race but with more or fewer rights.
Echo's note: Same as above!
14. What is something you deeply wish would happen—for yourself and for the world? Something that, if it happened, would make everything better.
Elif: Equality and justice, because not everyone can access these.
Echo's note: My answer is similar: I hope all national leaders were women, so there would likely be less war and more equality and justice.
15. How are your family and friends doing back in your home country?
Elif: My family and friends are doing fine in Turkey. I talk to them occasionally. Some visited, which was nice. One friend plans to come this year or next. I’m sad I can’t attend his wedding.
Echo's note: Last year I visited Istanbul, and I found it to be one of the friendliest and most hospitable cities in the world. Of course, male gaze and second-hand smoke remain issues.
16. What advice would you give to others who are considering leaving their country, or who are already going through a similar journey?
Elif: Be patient. Good things take time. Also, keep an open mind. Learn to adjust to a new culture without losing yourself or your own culture.
Echo's note: I really like Elif’s phrase, “Good things take time.” Many times, good things do take time to arrive. It reminds me of how people often describe the process of obtaining permanent residence or citizenship as being in an “immigration prison,” with the waiting years compared to serving a sentence. I have sometimes felt this way myself when troubled by visa issues. But then I think: how can I define each day of my life as a “prison”? That would be doing myself an injustice. I’ve also stopped imagining that only when I get a passport will I be freer or happier. Instead, I try to make each day in the present truly happy and free. I refuse to treat any day of my life as second-class.
17. Do you feel like you truly belong here now? What makes a place feel like home to you?
Elif: No, I don’t feel like I truly belong here, and I don’t think I ever will. Having sincere friends and being in a generous environment would feel like home, which is hard to find in the Netherlands.
Echo's note: Elif’s words remind me of Woolf’s quote: “As a woman, I have no country.” For women, it is hard to find true belonging anywhere. Much of the world is just a man’s home. For me, a place that gives a sense of freedom is home. Freedom, nature, and ease define home.
18. Where do you see yourself in five years? Do you want to stay in the Netherlands, go back to your country, or move somewhere else?
Elif: In 5 years I’d be still in the Netherlands, working at job I want and happy but after that I really wanna move to a warm country, could be Spain. And I wanna work remotely. I love Spanish culture and really wanna learn Spanish after achieving a good level of Dutch.
Echo’s note: I also hope I could spend autumn and winter in Spain, but spring and summer in the Netherlands, because it’s so hot in Spain during that time! A mix of Spain and the Netherlands would be perfect.
19. How has this journey—leaving your country and starting over elsewhere—changed you? Are you still the same person you used to be?
Elif: The journey was quite hard tbh. Especially the first year. But communication wasnt a problem at all, I speak English and it was easy. Then I started to learn Dutch, which made my journey easier. I improved a lot, I’m more confident, can think things like Dutch people. I get used to here quickly. Now that we’re at home, it’s easier to live and get used to live. It was quite hard when we were at the refugee camp. I was ashamed of saying that I’m a refugee actually when I meet new people.
Echo’s note: I really relate to the sense of shame she mentions. Sometimes your background or situation can make you feel inferior. It takes a lot of study, wandering, reflection, and thinking to build up confidence and realize that this sense of shame isn’t necessary. I’m happy that Elif—and we—have worked through this.
20. What gives you hope these days? What helps you keep going?
Elif: My ambition and hopes in the future gives me hope. I know that I can achieve what I want if I study and do a lot. I want a good life and future so I’m doing everything to make it happen.
Echo’s note: I am really inspired by this answer. What are the preconditions for happiness? Ambition, desire, confidence, and imagination about the future—these seem to be what keep us going and believing that we can shape our lives.
倘若你有关于“莫问世界Echoing the World”任何感受,问题和建议(比如希望我去采访谁),欢迎在评论区留言!